YON and YRN

Okay, I’ve looked both these up on the Internet and found a lot of stuff, but I am still having a problem. This is a British pattern and I know that YON is done bet. a p and a k, whereas a YRN is done between 2 p’s. The problem is with the YON. The help I found said that when you do a YON, your yarn is already in the front, so you have to “flip” the thread over the needle again to create that extra stitch. However, when I do this and I come back on the next row, that stitch “unknits itself”. In other words, the extra stitch created falls off and you have one huge loop instead of two stitches. Also, when it says to flip it (or wrap it again) which direction do you go: Clockwise around needle, or counterclockwise around needle? HELP!

Barb

Is the YON done between 2 purl sts? Then the yarn is in front, move it over the needle to the back, then to the front again for the next purl st. Cwise and CCwise confuse me, it depends how you’re looking at the needle as to which is which. But you simple wrap it around the same way you do for a knit or a purl stitch.

This YON is after a purl then YON and then slip one. I HAVE been wrapping it just as I would if knitting or purling and flipping back and forth; however, when knitting back on the next row, as I said, the wrap seems to unknit itself and create one huge loop. Now, maybe it’s supposed to be that way, but it just doesn’t look right to me and I feel like giving up this pattern. I am so bummed because usually I can figure out something after trying it a few times. This time it’s not going well and I am ready to tear my hair out and abandon this wonderful looking pattern.

Barb

It’s supposed to leave a hole. I thought you meant it just wasn’t there at all. How does the entire sequence of stitches run… P, YON, sl 1, then…?

Thanks for the help. After working and frogging all afternoon and into the night, I started over. I am not to the point where I was having the problem yet, but my yarn was getting frayed from so much ripppppppiiiinnnnggg! So I cut that yarn and started with a new strand with Row 1. A new beginning!

I think I may have it figured out, but I won’t know until I get therem which is Row 7. There is another term that I may have been confused about and that is; YFRN. Here’s the entire row 7:

K1, *YF, sl 1, k1, psso, p1, yon, sl 1, k2 tog, psso, yfrn, p1, k2 tog, yf, k1, rep from * to end.

I assumed that yfrn [B][I]just[/I][/B] meant to bring the yarn around to the front, which you would normally do with a purl anyway. So, maybe since it should be assumed that you would bring the yarn around to the front anyway, the yfrn means something else. Looking at the abbreviations, it says: “[B] yfrn[/B]: yarn foward and round needle.” That might be where I am losing the extra stitch. So, I will go back and get to that spot again and see if the yfrn is REALLY where the problem was all along and solve the problem. I am a very experienced knitter, but I have never used a British pattern before, so it makes me sound like a newbie.

I will keep you posted if it doesn’t work and maybe you can then offer some other advice. Thanks for the support.

Barb

Yes, the yfrn is yarn forward around needle, or another way to write YO. It’s used when you go from a knit st to a purl - bring the yarn to the front, then around the needle to the front again. British patterns use these terms to describe what you [I]do[/I] with the yarn rather than just ‘yo’ which is the [I]result[/I].

K1, *YF, sl 1, k1, psso, p1, yon, sl 1, k2 tog, psso, yfrn, p1, k2 tog, yf, k1, rep from * to end.

k1 - as normal

  • YF - bring the yarn foward between the needles.

sl 1, k1, psso - this is a single stitch; a decrease executed directly from the yarn forward it creates a yarnover and one stitch. net change - zilch

purl 1 - leaves your yarn forward.

YON - yarn OVER needle - not between the needles. creates a yarnover.

sl 1, k2 tog, psso - double decrease. leaves your yarn in back.

yfrn - yarn forward round needle. Bring the yarn between the needles forward, over the needle and back between the needles ending forward.

(you’ve created a total of three yarnovers and decreased three - net change is still zilch)

p1.

k2tog. (decrease)

YF - bring the yarn forward between the needles.

k1. Since you have to bring the yarn over the needle to work the knit, you create another yarnover.

I think it’s a very complicated way to say:

k1; * YO, (slip 1, k1, psso), p1, YO, (sl 1, k2 tog, psso), YO, p1, k2 tog, YO, k1, rep from *

Or possibly even clearer:

k1; *YO, skp, p1, YO, s2kp, YO, p1, k2tog, YO, k1 repeat from *

Thanks for all the help, especially Mario. You must live and breathe knitting lace. But, I have to tell you that this pattern is a total nightmare. I am a very experienced knitter and I have had nothing but problem after problem with this pattern. I started over completely last night (and I’m talking from casting on again). I worked on it literally ALL DAY LONG on Mother’s day and I’ve only reached Row 11 (of 151 stitches). Now this is absolutely ridiculous. I could have had an entire purse knitted by this time on any other pattern because I am usually a fast knitter. I am really not pleased with what has been knitted so far either. It just looks uneven because of all the stops and starts, etc. I put markers between sections so I could keep some order and figure out what was wrong on each section. I am including a picture of the pattern so you can see it. It looks easy, yes, but beware – it’s not! Once I get past the lace section and to the stockinette, it will be a breeze, but then comes the sleeves, the lace bodice and the bonnet! I won’t live through this nightmare. I am seriously considering scrapping the whole thing and using another pattern altogether.

Hi, Barb…

Two things that might help… When I have an intricate pattern I generally re-write the whole thing, row by row, on index cards, one row to a card. Then I can arrange the instructions in a more legible and easier to follow layout. Besides, you’ll get very familiar with the pattern when you do this. A big plus with this is that you can stack the index cards and turn them over one at a time so that you always know which row you’re on.

The second thing is - are you using a lifeline? That might be a big help to you once you’ve really gotten in tune with the pattern. (There’s a video on here about how to use a lifeline if you’re unfamiliar with it)

From what I can see the set is GORGEOUS, but I don’t believe it should be so painful to do! Concentration is one thing but pain? Who needs THAT? :o)

Good luck and keep us all posted on your decision/progress!

Happy Knitting,
Ruthie

Thanks Ruthie,
What a sweetie you are! I really needed some inspiration because I had already decided to abandon the pattern. Your suggestion about using index cards is something I already have done! Isn’t that funny that we both thought of the same thing? I used that method on another baby outfit I knitted and it worked wonderfully. Now I am doing it on all my complicated projects. I typed each row on an individual sticky label, then stuck each one on an index card, made a hole in the upper left corner and put one of those rings that you can get that look like the rings in a binder to hold them together, so then as I knit, I just flip and go on to the next row/card. The main problem I am having is with the yfrn. It comes right before a slipped stitch, and when I go to the next row to knit back, that yfrn unknits itself. I know it is supposed to leave a hole, but when this happens, my stitch count is off by one, so I know there is supposed to be two stitches from the yfrn and that’s not happening because, as I said, it unknits itself. I am going crazy. I never heard of lifeline, so I will go there and see what it’s all about. I will post what I find out and what I decide to do. I have even thought of substituting those lace rows in the pattern to a different lace pattern (written in the good old US of A), but that’s going to take some real concentration to get the stitch count right and it seems like too much work to make this project any fun at all.

Thanks again,
Barb

The yfrn you gave us is not before a slipped stitch. Is there another row you are having problems with?

Just to let anyone know that is interested - I am giving up on this pattern. There is no way to work it out. I even tried knitting just one full pattern repeat with thicker yarn and larger bamboo needles (to help with possible slippage of stitches) and I can always get to Row 7 where the problem begins with a yfrn instruction. Then on Row 8, the yfrn unkits itself and I have too few stitches. If anyone is up to trying this themselves, I am posting rows 2-8. If you want to give it a try, let me know how it comes out. If you can solve the problem, maybe you can enlighten me.
Cast on 151 sts. (you could just cast on 11 for first set)
Row 1 is just plain knitting.
Row 2: P1, *yrn, p2, sl 1, p2 tog, psso, p3, yrn, p1, rep from * to end.
Row 3: K1, *K1, yf, k2, sl 1, k2 tog, psso, k2 yf, k2, rep from * to end
Row 4: P1, *p2, yrn, p1, sl 1, p2, psso, p1, yrn, p3, rep from * to end.
Row 5: K1, k3, yf, sl 1, k2 tog, psso, yf, k4, rep from * to end.
Row 6: P1, *p1, k2, p2, rep from * to end.
Row 7: K1, *yf, sl 1, k1, psso, p1, yon, sl 1, k2 tog, psso, [B][COLOR=“Red”]yfrn,[/COLOR][/B] p1, k2 tog, yf, k1, rep from * to end.
Row 8: P1, *p2, k1, p3, k1, p3, rep from * to end.

So, this is the first 8 rows, and I cannot get Row 8 knitted properly if I go by the instructions for Row 7. It seems that the “yfrn” may be the problem. I have done exactly what everyone has told me and that is to: bring yarn to front, then up over the needle and back around to between the needles. That doesn’t seem to work because when knitting Row 8 the extra stitch created by the yfrn on Row 7 becomes a big loop and drops off that extra stitch. Believe me when I say I have tried and tried (probably about 16 hours (no exaggeration) of knitting and ripping, knitting and ripping. Cannot get past this point. Here is the picture of how it is supposed to look. Please tell me there is an error and I am not a dumb dumb. I repeat that I am an experienced knitter and have never ever ever run into a problem I couldn’t solve – until NOW!

Hi! :waving:

When you bring your yarn forward round the needle, before you slip the stitch, are you completing the turn round the needle? It sounds almost as though you’re bringing the yarn forward, taking it round and then slipping the stitch without bringing the yarn all the way around, back to the front of the piece and THEN slipping the stitch.

Or am I hallucinating? :?? It’s very possible I’ve misunderstood the whole dilemma but I suddenly got a visual of the stitches “un-knitting” themselves (what a picture!!!) and thought I’d ask if that could be the problem.

Gosh I hope you resolve this before you’re completely bald from pulling out your hair! :gah:

Let us know!

Happy knitting,

Ruthie

You’re essentially going from a knit (the dec) to a purl st. So after you pass the slip st over the k2tog, bring the yarn to the front [I]between [/I]the needles, then over to the back, then to the front between the needles again so you can purl the stitch. You’re wrapping the yarn [I]all the way around [/I]the needle. It feels kind of like a wrap and a half and it sort of is that.

yup. that why in a lot of the 19th century patterns they will specify 2 yarnovers between a knit and a purl when a single yo is the result desired.

When you turn your work for row 8, you should see:

p1; *p1,O, k1, O, p1, O, k1, p1, O, p1; repeating from *

So for row 8: P1, *p2, k1, p3, k1, p3, rep from *

purl the first stitch, purl the next two. knit into the knit, purl the purl and the second yarnover. knit the knit. purl the next three. repeat.

Mario, you seem to be very knowledgeable when knitting lace. I know you have gone back and forth, back and forth with me and I have thoroughly screwed you up. I first said that the problem was a YON before a slipped stitch and a K2, psso. Then I thought it was the yfrn further in the row. But I had gotten myself confused. It turns out that it [B][U]IS[/U][/B] the ORIGINAL problem of the YON before a [I]slip 1, k2, Psso[/I]. Can you do me a favor and work these two rows? You start out with 11 stitches and you should end up with 11 stitches to go back and do the next row. However, when going back to the next row, that YON done before the slip 1, k2, psso falls off the needles when trying to do those same 11 stitches going back, leaving one stitch where there should be 2 if you’ve done the YON correctly. I have done it a million different ways and no matter how I do it, it won’t work. Please knit these rows and tell me how you come out and what happens to YOUR YON before the slipped stitch on the next row. First, cast on 11 stitches and knit 1 row just to give it foundation, then:

[B][I]Row 7:[/I][/B] K1, *yf, sl 1, k1, psso, p1, [COLOR=“Red”]yon, sl 1,[/COLOR] k2 tog, psso, yfrn, p1, k2 tog, yf, k1, rep from * to end.
[B][U]Row 8:[/U][/B] P1, *p2, k1, p3, k1, p3, rep from * to end.

I am interested to see what happens to your knitting. I think there has to be an error.

Thanks again,
Barb

Mario and all of you who have tried to help: I found this post a few minutes ago from someone who experienced the same problem. It is VERBATUM the same one and must be the same pattern! Don’t know how it was solved yet. Her post I have put in italics. See what you think:

[I]I’m having major problems with a baby cardigan pattern. I think the problem is in

the rows with “yfwd, yrn.” I know what the first one is, as well as slip one, psso,

etc., but I’m ending up with too many stitches and can’t figure out what is wrong.

I’m bringing the yarn forward and then wrapping it around the needle. The

10-stitch repeat reads: k1, p1, yon, s1, k1, psso, k1, k2tog, yfwd, yrn, p1, k1, p1. I

have ripped these rows out so many times my yarn is worn out! I’ve knitted

several baby sweaters with Sirdar patterns and thought I had used this one, but

it’s not making sense. No matter what I do, I either have too many or not enough

stitches when I finish the row (long rows at that, as the front and back are knitted

in one piece to the armholes!)Thankfully, there are only a couple of rows I’m

having problems with, but I just can’t get past them. Thank you so much![/I]

Sometimes when there’s a YO before a slip 1, k1 psso dec, you need to keep a finger on the YO so you don’t pass that over instead of the slip stitch. And the YO from a knit to a purl has to wrap alllll the way around the needle. On the following row, just be careful that the YOs don’t drop off the needle. I’ve broken the tricky parts down separately, maybe that will help.

R7 - k1, yo, slip, k psso.
Next, bring the yarn [I]between[/I] the needles to purl 1,
put the yarn loosely [I]over[/I] the needle
slip the st (this is where you might need to hold the yarn down),
k2tog, psso.
Now [U]move the yarn to the front [I]between [/I]the needles, over the needle to the back, then to the front again between the needles[/U] to purl the next stitch. That feels like you’re wrapping the yarn twice, it’s more like 1½ times, and that may be where you’re going wrong.
Next is k2tog, a regular YO, then k1.

On the next row, just purl and knit the sts as stated in the pattern.

Thanks Sue. I am leaving in the morning for a trailer camping trip. I printed out your instruction and I will take it all with me and find some quiet time to try this out. I sure hope it works this time because I’ve been trying to do this for 14 days now, trying all different techniques to no avail. When I get back next week, I will check and see if anyone else comes up with some suggestions too. It seems like what you have told me, I have tried, but I will go strictly by the stitches you say to work. If not, I give up – UNCLE!

Barb