What should a schematic for a pattern for saddle shoulder design look like for the back piece?

[knitter1]

I’ve just temporarily basted together the back, front and sleeves for a saddle shoulder sweater. I am very happy overall with the fit other than for a nagging question as to whether the back neck is too low. However, there is a detail in the schematic for the back piece that adds 5.6cm to the neck area on top of the back body panel. This does not happen on the front piece. I realise that once I pick up stitches for the neckband it will draw the neck measurement in considerably and that might make the back neck level turn out okay as I plan to add a 5cm rib for the neckband.

I will show you the back neck detail in the image as I don’t understand why it’s there. Right now, with the sweater basted together, the saddle shoulder sits really well across the front and back panels and the sleeve seam meets up exactly at the garment underarm level as it should. If I were to knit up the back neck as displayed then the saddle shoulder length would run short. The last instruction for the back piece is “Work 16 rows even on remaining 36 enter sts. Place sts on holder”.

I would be interested in any thoughts you might like to express here as I am not experienced in knitting saddle shoulders - this is my first.

[salmonmac]

What is the name of your pattern and designer?
It looks like this extension may be where the saddle shoulder slots in. It’s not the usual placement but that may be this design. It lifts the back and offsets the shoulder.
Do the details for finishing or seaming the sweater give you any hint as to the placement of the saddle? What about the directions for picking up sts for the neckband? Do those directions mention picking up along the saddle or not?

You might undo the baste sts at the shoulder, add the extension and see how it all fits, just as a test.

[kushami]

Which pattern are you making?

And …

Can you show us the schematic for the front?

Edit: This shaping reminds me of an Elizabeth Zimmermann design. I haven’t got my EZ books handy, but here is a design based on hers that shows the square shape in the back (see third photo):
https://knitty.com/ISSUEdf12/PATTatyourleisure.php

Note for eveyone: On Ravelry people have gotten confused between the EZ saddle shoulder variations, and there are project photos on the pattern pages that show the wrong variation. Hence, don’t look for this on Ravelry or you will get confused

[kushami]

I have pulled out a commercial knit of my dad’s with a saddle shoulder that I think might help, but I’m afraid I can’t post photos until tomorrow morning, about 14 hours from now.

Is this the software-generated pattern?

[salmonmac]

That’s a good example from knitty. The photo of the back is a perfect example.

[knitter1]

I think ive worked it out. Will post the story tomorrow along with a pic that made sense of it for me.

[ColoCro]

I think the site @kushami posted shows what is intended. It’s very common to raise the back neck at least an inch. If you look at sewing patterns, the back neck is usually 3-1/2 to 4" higher than the front neck. Setting the saddle in as shown here would also account for the difference in stitch counts, as only the front half of the saddle would be picked up as neck stitches.

[knitter1]

I found the pic below last night which explained how and why the higher back neck for the garment is used and ColoCro is correct in that with this new inclusion, the number of pick up stitches around the neck are stated correctly by the KnitWare software. The saddle band is 22 stitches wide and KnitWare was saying to pick up 11 stitches from the saddle band for the neck pick up.

I don’t find this approach at the back all that attractive and will have to look into how I might be able to calculate for the saddle band to continue across the upper back giving a yoke appearance. Anyone have any input about that?

I plan to mattress stitch the seams that are used for the saddle band and adding that higher back to the garment makes for a tricky right-angle turn in this regard - another drawback to this style. The orange jumper in ColoCro’s pic appears to have maybe a chain stitch worked over the seams??

Thanks everyone for coming to help and I’d love your advice or comments if you know of other ways to handle the appearance of a saddle shoulder design at the back neck. I’ve seen patterns that don’t use the higher panel added for the back neck and they all have very wide ribs that can stand away from the neck. Would let too much cold air in for me. Lol.

[Creations]

I agree with you, personally not keen on the look of the angle on the raised back neck, I don’t find it all that attractive either.
I don’t think the mattress stitch seam would necessarily be a problem with the angled turn though, it can been tightened up to the correct tension at the corner and then continued up the vertical and tightened. I think that aspect would ok, but the point is moot if you don’t like the design.
Your idea of continuing the saddle band across the back neck sounds like a nice design solution to me. It would be maybe half the stitches from each saddle continued straight to the needed length to meet centre back with just the right tension across the seam and could be seamed in the centre like some neckbands are. Or could be joined with a 3 needle bind off which would create a small design feature vertically up that back section to the neck which I think would be a lovely detail. Could even be bound off in a different colour to make a point of it, some higher end clothing has small design features like this which add a little something special.

The other option I was thinking would be to alter the shape of the higher back neck and saddle so they joined with a curve leading up to the neck. Ripping out a a few cm of the top of the saddle and working it with decreases on th back edge, then to the same length as given in pattern. Matching the back of the sweater by decreasing more gradually than at a right angle. Perhaps also allowing the seam there to point to (or lead up to) a single purl column in the neck ribbing to allow the curve to extend visually. Some small, change in the rib pattern on that area can do that.

I think you’ll find a solution you like. It’s not always clear on pattern pics what the details look like, especially when there is hair in the way, it’s a shame to get a surprise when so much of the work has already been put in.

[kushami]

Here are photos of my dad’s RTW jumper:

(Excuse the wrinkles: I pulled it out of the mending basket.)

I am undecided as to whether your knitting software is confused, or whether it is doing something like the EZ design. Measuring the armscye depth would probably help to determine that.

[knitter1]

It doesn’t make sense to photograph a fashion piece of any kind with long hair hanging all over the details! Of course, that probably occur to the photographers but the person requesting the pics should be aware of it.

I like your first idea for a redo next time. I’ll stick with this design for the current project as I regarded it as an experiment anyway. I really like the effect the saddle shoulder design gives my narrow shoulders so it’s going to be worth my time to come up with a back design aspect I like. Thanks for your comments.

[knitter1]

Thanks for taking the time to upload pics, kushami.

Knitware is old software, now discontinued unfortunately, but I installed a virtual drive on my computer with windowsxp just so I could still run the program. I initially thought it had made a mistake in saying pick up 11 stitches from the saddle band for the neck and I was in conflict about this because we don’t expect software to get things wrong. It did occur to me the other reason was it was something I was not understanding and that’s why I was excited when the penny dropped last night after seeing the pic I uploaded. I’m really happy with the fit (at least in its basted stage) but need to find a better solution for the upper back / neck treatment. As Creations said above, I’m sure I will manage to do that in time.

[salmonmac]

I wonder if adding short rows to the back would help lift the back neck. Then you could place the saddle shoulder in as often done without the slot (perhaps the way you have it basted in now).
Some good ideas already above. @kushami beautiful work on your dad’s sweater.

[kushami]

Oh, I’m afraid that is a machine knit, not my handiwork. But I did attach the elbow patches.

I am thinking of copying this in fingering or light fingering, if I can find a suitable wool. The brand doesn’t seem to exist any more and this one has a hole at the neckline.

[ColoCro]

The reason those wide-ribbed collars stand away from the neck is at least partly because they DIDN’T raise the back neck! I had a 40-year career making clothing patterns, and the back neck is always, always, always higher than the front neck, except maybe for a boat neck. And boat necks tend to ride up and try to choke you…because they’re too high in front, relative to the back neck.

I think a redesign so the saddle shoulder runs across the back like a yoke is a good idea for the next sweater. If it’s half the width of the saddle, it will serve the same purpose of raising the back neck, without that odd-looking jog.

[knitter1]

I have sewn clothes for decades and completely agree with you about the back neck should be higher for comfortable clothing fit, ColoCro. I just have to get my mind around how I would knit the saddle part to provide a back yoke. When I have time to search, I’ll try to find a pattern for this idea to understand how it might be done. I’m not even sure it’s possible to design a rectangular yoke across the upper back using a saddle shoulder construction until I commit time to trying to work it out. Thanks for your response!

[ColoCro]

I’d probably try extending the 11 stitches from the shoulder strap across to the Center Back, from both sides and join with a 3-needle bind-off. Looks like that’s how much the back is raised.

[knitter1]

Thank you ColoCro. I actually managed to find a sleeve which displays what you’re talking about. It’s a fairly narrow back yoke but I know a saddle shoulder is limited by the sleeve head measurement. I still think its appearance is better than the current design for the upper back though.

[Creations]

Yes that’s a great pic to show exactly what I was thinking. The current pattern you have would take very little adapting, just don’t raise the back neck on the back piece, bind off instead, then don’t bind off the 11 saddle stitches, keep knitting to the length needed to reach to centre neck/back. There would be a horizontal seam right across the back, and the small vertical seam joining the 2 saddles. No change in stitch count needed.
If you wanted to be more adventurous a change in stitch pattern a few stitches in from the edge, running from underarm to the end of the extented saddle, would add another design detail. A slip stitch column or a 2 stitch cable for instance, would follow the sleeve cap shaping and run across the back to the centre seam. This would give a design element that highlights the shape, similar to the way the orange/yellow sweater pic (in earlier post) has the seam shape highlighted with a subtle stitch change.

[knitter1]

Thanks for your thoughts, Creations. I downloaded an old pattern from Etsy (see attached image) so I can go through the instructions and understand how this construction works. Again, I must say, it is not the most attractive design either and I have yet to decide on which design approach I will try next for my second saddle shoulder pattern. I have not had the time to decipher the old pattern as yet. The old design does not offer what I would call a back yoke rather, a back strap.

Everyone, please feel free with your votes on which back neck design you prefer.