I’m curious about a couple of things with sweater pattern shaping for the armhole and yoke.
In many patterns a modified drop shoulder has a small decrease from the body width to make the underarm and i thought that was quite standard to slightly impove the fit of the sleeve into the armhole. Sometimes though it’s the opposite, and increases from the body width into the armhole, like this
What is the purpose of this? Is it better or worse than the other version of shaping the underarm for a drop shoulder sweater?
Another question, sometimes the shoulder seam is slanted, higher at the neck edge, and I thought this was for a more fitted top, with the set in sleeve with bell shape sleevecap and that the seam would then sit just on the edge of the shoulder, however I must be wrong as I see this slanted shoulder seam in sweaters with dropped shoulders and the shoukders continue to be much wider than the shoulders and drop down the arm.
What is this slant for? How does it effect the size if the armhole?
This is from this pattern and it’s obviious inthe pattern pic, and by the sizing that the shoukder seams to the sleeve some distance down the arm, a dropped shoulder, so what is the slant for?
I know so little about why things are shaped the way they are.
The slant is to follow the natural shape of human shoulders. In all cases, it will give a better fit at the armscye, as there will be less fabric to droop at the front and back of the arm.
I can’t explain why a pattern might increase before the sleeve attachment, unless it has something to do with the stitch pattern on that specific sweater. The ones that jog in, as in your 2nd pic, should fit somewhat better. You are correct that this mimics the shape of a standard armscye to some extent, and it DOES give a somewhat better fit under the arm.
I personally prefer the fit of a set-in sleeve, with the sleeve seam sitting at the point of the shoulder, although that means either working in pieces and sewing together, or using one of several methods to knit a set-in sleeve all in one (Ziggurat, European shoulder, others I can’t think of right now). When I finish my current shawl project, I’m planning to tackle a Ziggurat cardigan. Ravelry: tric pattern by Åsa Tricosa
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Thanks so much for this.
I have always worn a more fitted type top and would ordinarily have opted for a set in sleeve, like the fit you posted (very nice cardigan!), seaming doesn’t bother me in the slightest, I prefer it actually. However since my health and mobility problems i find i need a dropped sleeve because it is bigger in the armhole and i can get in and out more easily (i can’t wear most of my clothes any more, struggle to get unto a fitted tshirt, jacket, cardigan, button up shirt etc). Thats why i have shifted to maiingninly dropped sleeve sweaters,and i have enlarged the armhole too. Some are basic T shape and some have been modified drop shoulder, the small bind off underarm. I’ve made the european shoulder which i really like in the shoulder but the body ends up very big for me - making changes to a top down sweater or european shoulder is beyond my ability so far.
I look at the 2 patterns posted and they both have a bit of bulk around the arm/body so I’m just not seeing where the difference or improvement is by adding the sloped shoulder. I think I’m missing something. I’m trying to decide if i should include a slope on my next project, if it is worth learning how to calculate it.
Does the flexibikity in the fabric and the length of thendrop not just fall to the shaoe of thenshoukder anyway? Or the extra fabric bulks at the body/underarm??
The drop shoulder I need for mobility and don’t mind now, the slouchy look. But i was wondering if i can keep the drop (sleeve seam) quite low over the shoulder but make a narrower body, that’s why i asked about the first shape, the increase at the underarm. I could do with a narrower body, i think it would fit me a bit better but with the wide armhole.
Huh. I sent a reply to this, but it doesn’t show here. I thought replying to an email notification would post to the Forum, but I guess not.
The slope of the shoulder removes about 2" from the armscye depth, at the shoulder point. If it goes straight out (T-shaped), that 2" of fabric drops down and makes the upper chest area baggier, without appreciably making the armhole deeper, just baggier. I would slope the shoulder, and then drop the armscye as low as you need it for mobility, although there comes a point where a lower armscye actually RESTRICTS mobility, in terms of being able to raise your arm once you have the sweater on. But maybe raising your arm over your head isn’t a concern for you, and it’s certainly not as much of an issue in knits as in woven fabric.
You might find a dolman or batwing sleeve works well for you. The extra fullness in the sleeve counteracts the low armscye.
Or do away with the whole concept of an armscye!
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Thank you so much!
I opted for a wide batwing after my mobility became bad, it was nice to be able to get in and out and feel like i was wearing something cosy and special (designer!) rather than the tent sized men’s tshirts and joggers I’d been in.
I do have more movement now and I’m improving but, you’re right, lifting my arms above my head is not my priority. Having enough ease and size of armhole is still important.
The 2" you mention at the point of the shoulder, des this mean the armhole is 2" lower down the body than it would have been in a modified drop or T shape? The overal length calculated from the highest point on the slope?
I’ll have to change to cm for the next bit…
If a straight across shoulder, or T shape, was
60cm long with 20cm armhole, 40cm underarm to hem
does the slope shape become
60cm at top of slope, 55cm hem to outer shoulder (so sloping 5 cm height or 2")
And does the 20cm armhole become 15cm instead? Underarm to hem stays at 40cm?
Is that right?
I’m possibly drafting my own pattern, I’ve charted half the colourwork, but even if i use an existing pattern i always end up modifying the size and shape and it would be helpful to understand the slope calculation and fit to help me choose a pattern or modify it. The sloped shoulder pattern i posted is on the big side for me and I’d need to modify to narrow the body some.
Another thing, do sloped shoukders fit better on sloped shoulders? My shoulders don’t really slope which is perhaps why I find the idea harder to get to grips with.
Yes, the shoulder drop makes the armhole smaller and doesn’t really affect where it hits. If you want the same size armhole, you could drop it at the underarm. But if your shoulders are very straight, you probably don’t need to fuss with this.
You should be able to take in the body of the sloped-shoulder one. The easiest way is to take the excess out of the center, as that causes the fewest changes. It would make the neck tighter, but that shouldn’t be too hard to adjust for someone who makes as many alterations as you do.
Or you could keep the neck the same and just not make the shoulders as wide. Depends a bit on how the pattern is written. Also remember, if you take both shoulders in 2cm, that will make the body 8 cm smaller around…two shoulders x front/back.
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Thank you.
I’m still debating and changing my mind from one moment to the next, to slope or not to slope.
One of the drawing factors is the obvious shoulder slope in this sweater which I’m sort of copying
But the more I look at it the less appealing the slope becomes. I’m not so keen how low the armhole is and how it pulls at the body with even a small raise of the arm.
Looking at the sweater I most recently made (which i really like but I don’t want the next one identical, I want smaller) I like how the straight shoulder just goes straight out across my shoulder and then drops down my upper arm (if it’s not broken, don’t fix it?).
Soooo… maybe what I’ll try is the style of the other sweater. I can keep the 55cm shoulder width to drop the same distance down my upper arm, but reduce the body to 50cm across.
I might shift the seam backwards though.
I think I’ll revisit the slope either if/when I can wear more fitted clothes again, or when knitting for someone else.
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Yes, that’s the issue with a lower armscye. As soon as you raise your arm, the whole side goes up with it. In woven fabrics, it will also bind across the bicep, but it’s not so noticeable in knits. You actually get MORE range of motion the closer the underarm of the garment is to your armpit!
Dolman / batwing sleeves solve this by adding fabric to the underarm area, but that’s definitely not the more fitted look you’re after. Although I think the Andera Babb batwing cardi has a fairly slim look, partly through the color choices.
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Yes i have discovered his before i had mobility problems. I read quite a lot about set in sleeves, how to measure, how to shape the bell cap and so on. Even so, the info had the depth under the armpit too deep and i made a very fitted long sleeve top which i had to frog a lot of and redo with the underarm right up in the armpit. It fitted beautifully in the end but now I can’t wear it.
It’s great having all your knowledge. Thank you.
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I can’t tell you how much my background in pattern-making and clothing construction has helped on my knitting journey! I’m always happy to share!
It must help immensely. I’ve always been the absolute worst with sewing. Out of necessity I became quite good with wonder-web to fix hems on suit skirts and trousers as it’s more like working with sticky tape.
I’m lucky to have you here!
I just knit all the way to the row before the armholes and realised I didn’t add in the selvedge stitches. Grrr…
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Oh no! I hate when that happens!
I’ve gotten myself in a bit of a tangle by changing a section of my Stephen West shawl to avoid a whole lot of p3togs that were NOT working out for me. But by taking out a row so I could to k3tog tbl instead, my yarn carries up the wrong side…or at least, a side where it’s harder to hide the carries. I should be able to pick them up like floats later, to minimize them, but the pattern as written would have carried them up the I-cord. We sometimes choose our own battles.
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Yep, choosing our battles.
I’m having second thoughts about the size and all aspects now that I’ve frogged back. Oh well.
