Hey there! I’m having an issue with short-row bust darts causing pointiness where they end. Has anyone experienced this issue before? This top I’ve been designing uses a combination of vertical bust darts and horizontal bust darts, since it’s a tube top with ~15% negative ease throughout. Originally I just used vertical bust darts for the shaping, but the negative ease causes the fabric to stretch horizontally, plus the tube top element causes you to want to wear it slightly higher on top, so I thought the horizontal bust darts were necessary to prevent the front from riding up due to not enough fabric vertically, or the back from bunching up due to too much fabric. But I’m worried that this is causing some excess fabric that’s contributing to this pointy, boxy shaping around the edges of the bust.
The general construction (it’s knitted top-down): Gradual increases along the vertical bust dart from the upper band to the fullest point of the bust (but this might be as frequent as every other row for someone with a very large + high bust), then when you hit the fullest part of the bust start horizontal short-row bust darts. The turns begin at the center of the underarm, and end at the apex of the bust, and are spaced out evenly in that distance (but again if you have a very large bust, your short row turns might be spaced only 1 stitch apart). After doing ~1/3 of the short rows, you begin doing the bottom vertical bust dart decreases, every other row, at the same time as short rows. For people with a very large bust to waist difference, you can stack 2 short rows (to avoid the short rows passing the vertical bust marker at the apex). Hopefully that helps give context but please let me know if there’s more info that would help!
Here’s a photo showing this sort of boxy pointy area where the short rows end:
Has anyone had issues with pointy-ness on bust darts before? Does anyone have any advice on how to mitigate this? I’m trying to figure out if I should try removing some of the vertical bust dart increases, or maybe remove some short rows, since the combo seems like it’s creating this excess… Any advice or experience appreciated!
I wonder if the pointiness is because one of the vertical darts meets the horizontal dart at or near the point. Can you make one of the darts (perhaps the horizontal one) shorter?
It seems to me that this is going to be a case of trial and error until you get the correct combination of shaping. It looks like it’s going to be a lovely top.
Have you looked at books like “Big Girl Knits” and “More Big Girl Knits” to see if the patterns there are any help?
In sewing, you “pinch out” excess fabric to try to identify a problem. So I would suggest trying that until you get the fabric to lie flat. (Just pinch it out on the outside - your focus is getting it to sit flat against your body.)
Looking at your photo, it seems to me that you could pinch out a vertical fold of fabric between the vertical darts of perhaps 4 stitches.
So I would measure that fold, and reduce the stitch count across the full bust by that amount x2.
It’s tricky to tailor a knitted garment to fit as closely as a woven fabric bodice simply because you can fit a fabric bodice on the fly by moving pins and adjusting darts etc., whereas in knitting you have to rip and reknit for each adjustment.
Having said all that, you have done a very nice job so far. I think the combination of short rows and vertical darts is working very well.
I wonder if this will block out? Have you tried this? I find my short rows look pouchy until the yarn has relaxed. Sorry but I have no sewing or design expertise! It’s looks lovely though.
I’ve been thinking on this since I first saw your post. I think you might have too many short rows and/or they should not extend as far toward center as they do. If your short row turn closest to the point of bust were a few stitches toward the side seam/underarm area it might help ease the transition and eliminate some of the poof. Another thing I think might - emphasis on might - help is a row/round worked even after the last increase and before the first short row. I also wonder if short rowing out then short rowing in as in a short row heel might help eliminate poof. I might play with this later just because I’m curious. Looking at toy patterns and other 3d knitted shapes might help. I expect there are free patterns with similar shaping (bra tops come to mind) if you can find them that could help you get this figured out. I use short row shaping extensively but have never used vertical darts in knitting, just so you know the limitations of my experience.
Thank you, these are super helpful suggestions so far, I really appreciate it!
I’m going to see if blocking it, especially on a curved surface, might help. I also think the suggestion of adding a couple extra rounds between the vertical bust dart and the short row beginning might help with it. I worry that if I have the short row turns farther out from the apex, the pointy part might just migrate out farther to the side and be even more noticeable… but maybe not! I might try working a sample with these measurements just at the bust to see which of these helps.
This photo is from one of my pattern testers- the bust dart combo worked perfectly for my much less busty sample, but a couple of my testers who have very large bust-to-waist ratios have experienced this, so i’m trying to figure out a good solution to update my pattern with that won’t require them to adjust it by eye after knitting. That’s totally what I would do for myself, but I’m hoping I can find a good generalized rule that helps prevent this, if that isn’t wishful thinking It’s a made-to-measure pattern so that’s good, but it really has been incredible to see how many different body proportions there are out there, and how truly custom some knitting solutions have to be to get the perfect tailored fit!
@GrumpyGramma I’ll also check out short row heels for inspo, I’ve never knitted a sock before so I didn’t think to look there! I’ve been struggling to find patterns that have this particular combo of bust shaping, since it seems like most extra-busty knitters just work out their own adjustments rather than having all that math included in most patterns.
I agree. The meeting of the short row and dart form a corner. A more rounded shape is what’s needed IMHO. I’d first try working a round before starting the short rows and then have the first turn at least one stitch toward the underarm.
Based on my experience with adjusting patterns to fit narrow shoulders and a too full bust, and adjusting center front length while still lengthening armholes I expect no real solution that everyone can use following a pattern. Working top down, my short rows to lengthen the front after joining in the round to knit the body of the sweater because I shortened the front higher up to keep the neck from sagging and bagging start at or about the center of the underarm and stop short of the fullest point of the bust. More likely IMHO it will be suggestions on what to try. I wish I could be more encouraging in my comments and hope I’m wrong.
Socks came to mind for me because I knit socks but don’t like short row heels. While you looking, check out German short row heels and see if the added round(s) might help somehow. I don’t know. I’m simply thinking of things I would try were I to knit something like this.
It is a geometry puzzle in three dimentions. I thought of hats because I dislike points on my hats. Hats are just a fat toe of a short sock.
However this top is a tube like a heelless sock.
Wild guess? Eliminate half the short rows? Probably more like reducing by 1/3 so you have 2/3 of the short rows in the photos. Retain the vertical darts. This is an instinctive hunch from geometry and math.
Front stitch count increases by Pi (3.14) times (radius of increase) while the row count increases only by half Pi times (radius of increase).
I’ll think on it some more and try a few options. I just can think clearly enough to explain myself.
Thanks again everyone who made suggestions here, they were really helpful! Here’s what I ended up doing:
Remove the top vertical bust dart altogether (to remove at least one source of the pointiness) - I didn’t love how these looked anyway. I also increased the stitches in the upper hem while reducing the needle size, so there’s fewer increases needed to get to the full bust, and these are now done along the sides of the top.
Remove an extra 2" of short rows. The top has a curved front hem anyway, so ultimately these extra 2" weren’t really necessary anyway.
Start the lower vertical bust darts sooner. I found it really helpful how people framed the problem as just being excess fabric - seems obvious in retrospect! Before I had people do 2/3 of the short rows before moving on to the lower bust darts, but having them begin sooner starts removing excess fabric while still getting the length from the short rows. I really wanted to keep these lower bust darts since I think they give a pretty princess-y look.
It’s a made-to-measure pattern so that’s good, but it really has been incredible to see how many different body proportions there are out there, and how truly custom some knitting solutions have to be to get the perfect tailored fit!
