# Repeats & orginal cast on stitches number

I’m new to this forum & knitting! HELLO!
Used to be an engineer - how complicated could it be to learn to knit?:teehee:
I think you guys are amazing! You have to be excellent crafters, mathematicians & engineers all in one!

I am stumped trying my 4th project (still on beginner’s linear panels but more ambitious).

I think I just do not understand how REPEAT works in a pattern’s instruction. I am certain I am doing the stitches correctly. However in the end, I am 2 stitches short of the 53 cast on in the beginning.

I’ve charted this out (once an engineer…) by counting on paper the stitches and I’ve also tried knitting a sample 10 or so rows. I’m always short 2 stitches.

[B]LACE WRAP PATTERN:[/B]
–Cast on 53 sts. Knit 3 Rows
ROW 1: K3, *yo, P2tog, K3; rep from * across
ROW 2: K3, *yo, P the next st & the next yo together, K3; rep from * across.
–Repeat ROW 2 for pat until 53 1/2 inches.
LAST ROW: K3, * yo, K1, K in back loop of the next yo, K3; rep from * across; Knit 2 rows. Bind off loosely.

I end up w/ 51 sts per row instead of the 53 cast on. Confusing!

Everytime there is a repeat, I do the “yo, P2tog & K3”. That is 6 sts per repeat. Plus there is the extra K3 at the beginning of every row. That does NOT add up to the pattern’s 53 cast on sts.

I think I need to understand what I am doing wrong with the repeat, before I can move on… Too many patterns have repeat instructions in them.

I’m looking forward to meeting a ‘teaching’ buddy here…
Thank you!!!:knitting:
Lee

You should always have 53 stitches no matter what you are working - you get that. For every yo you’re doing you are making an equal decrease of purling 2 together. This keeps the stitches always at the same number (53).

You are to do the Row 2 instruction for the entire body of the piece:
ROW 2: K3, *yo, P the next st & the next yo together, K3; rep from * across.
–Repeat ROW 2 for pat until 53 1/2 inches.

Suggestion: When you have finished your first pass on “Row 2”, count your stitches to make sure you have 53. Then be sure that on the next row, which is a repeat of the row 2, that the 2 you are purling together consists of one stitch and 1 yo. It’s hard to work into the yarn overs until you get used to it. Are your lace holes consistent in size? I’m thinking that you may inadvertently be missing purling into the yarn over and purling into one of the k3 knit stitches. Does that make sense?

When you do the repeat it starts with the instructions after the *. With the K3 at the beginning of each row you are creating a border. Those are 3 of your 53 stitches. With remaining 50 on the row you will be doing this: yo, P the next st & the next yo together, K3, yo, P the next st & the next yo together, K3, etc., until you reach the end, which will be a k3.

Turn your work, then: K3, yo, P the next st & the next yo together, K3, yo, P the next st & the next yo together, K3, etc., until you reach the end, which will be a k3.

In other words - there will [U]not[/U] be 6 knit stitches between your yo, P the next st & the next yo together.

I’m trying to think of all the things that may be going wrong. Let me know if I’m missing your point and I’ll try again.

Everytime there is a repeat, I do the “yo, P2tog & K3”. That is 6 sts per repeat. Plus there is the extra K3 at the beginning of every row. That does NOT add up to the pattern’s 53 cast on sts.

Nope that’s [B]5[/B] sts per repeat. You start with 5, add 1 with a YO, now you have 6, but then you p2tog which takes it down to 5 again. So 5 times 10 plus 3 is 53 sts.

You may be knitting a stitch after the YO, so it looks like yo, k1, dec, k3. That’s wrong - a YO is just a wrap around the needle then bring the yarn to the front to p2tog. So you have YO, p, k3, then repeat YO, p, k3

[I][COLOR=“DarkOrchid”]Nope that’s [B]5[/B] sts per repeat. You start with 5, add 1 with a YO, now you have 6, but then you p2tog which takes it down to 5 again. So 5 times 10 plus 3 is 53 sts[/COLOR].[/I] (Don’t know how to do quotes yet…)

Okay. I think a light bulb came on!! I was confused w/ what you wrote until the very end. I kept seeing 6 sts in the repeat. From my ‘Knitting Made Easy’ book I misinterpreted the yo stitch. The book’s yarn over picture shows the loop over the R needle & then knitting the L needle. From that I assumed a yo was a yo before a K1. :roflhard: Further, I had just learned about a yfwd from another pattern I was studying. Yarn forward meant I put the yarn IN FRONT. That reinforced my learning that a yo was basically a yfwd but w/ a knit (or pearl) st. As a new knitter, I assumed there could not be 2 symbols for the same action. Overthinking.

Actually you are saying that the yo = yfwd.

I’ve been mathematically trying to calculate or knit this for a week! With 6 sts in the repeat I could never get to the 53 cast on per row.

When you said it was [COLOR=“DarkOrchid”][I]5 times 10 = 50 plus 3 at beginning of row = 53[/I][/COLOR], I then checked the teaching book to see how I did the [B]yo[/B]. I saw my error.

Well, now the holes should line up for a nice lacey pattern. I can’t wait to try this again tonight & let you know if it works!

I’m so glad I found this forum & asked for help.
Thank you for your excellent & quick help! Great!
Lee

A YO is putting the yarn in front and doing the next st or wrapping it around the need and working the next stitch. The next stitch can be a purl, a knit or a decrease of some sort. It needs a little thinking out when you have a YO between a knit and a purl or a purl and a knit.

[COLOR=“Purple”]YO vs Yfwd[/COLOR]
[B][I]yarn over vs yarn forward[/I][/B]
I was wrong! YO & Yfwd are [B]not[/B] the same thing on the needle - I discovered exactly what you wrote. My Pat repeat instruction was [COLOR=“Teal”]*YO, P2tog, K3;[/COLOR] If I just brought the yarn forward (infront) when I did the P2tog I did not end up w/ extra stitch for the YO. As part of a pearl stitch the yarn must always come forward. Dah…

To accomplish the YO [COLOR=“SeaGreen”]extra[/COLOR] stitch I had to wrap the yarn around the right needle, put yarn forward, and then do the pearl 2 together.

My tests all worked perfectly - holes lined up - stitches matched the cast on #. Hooray!

:yay: [COLOR=“RoyalBlue”]What I’ve learned from everyone!!![/COLOR]
[B]1)[/B] YO is one step. Not 2. Only if the instruction states: YOK1 or YOP1 do you do a knit or pearl w/ a yarn over.
[B]2) [/B]YO is not the same as Yfwd - it depends on next stitch.
[B]3)[/B] Total row STS should = cast on STS ( [COLOR=“red”]unless[/COLOR] pattern calls for incr/decr sts in row)
[B]4)[/B] A P2tog & a yo cancel each other out. Add a sts, take one away ([COLOR=“red”]unless[/COLOR] pattern calls for incr/decr sts in row).
[B]5) [/B]Adding up # sts in a [COLOR=“Green”]repeat [/COLOR] can help calculate total sts per row. Formula:
Total per row [COLOR=“Blue”]= [/COLOR]#sts in 1 repeat [COLOR=“Blue”]times[/COLOR] #repeats per row [COLOR=“blue”]plus [/COLOR] #sts before & after repeat.

All you experts out there - [COLOR=“blue”]did I learn this lesson correctly??? [/COLOR]Learning is sometimes taking a step backwards, then going forward again. But always, moving forward…

If anyone has any math questions - feel free to send them… Math teacher in the house!

Lee

Actually, if you bring the yarn to the front, and if the next stitch is a knit or a knitted decrease (sl 1, k1 psso or ssk) you would have to bring the yarn over the top of the needle to do it and it’s the same as a YO. Patterns with british terms (which include Patons and Bernat) use yf between knit sts to mean YO. For a YO between a knit and a purl they use yrn which is yarn round the needle, and between a purl and knit, yon is used to mean yarn over the needle.

Then there’s when yf is used before a slip stitch which is not part of a decrease. Then you just bring the yarn to the front, slip the stitch, and move the yarn to the back between the tips. Usually the term ‘yb’ is used too so you know that it’s just for the slip stitch.

Should have called this thread
---- [COLOR=“DarkRed”][B]Yarn Overs [/B][/COLOR]----.

A YO is not easy. However, it’s very easy to over simplfy it.

Thank you for further clarification. :yay: I’ve tried every single one of the yo stitches you mentioned. Very complicated stuff! I can see what you mean! Previously, I had tried Sl & psso when testing other ‘lace’ patterns. I do like the British terms (such as yf betwn knit sts or yrn btwn knit & p for yarn over needle – they are more precise! It would have saved me a week of grief.

My knitting teacher upto joining this forum has been ‘[COLOR=“DarkGreen”]Knitting Made Easy’ (Red Heart Yarns). [/COLOR]The book is very basic. Too much so, I think now!
[B]Book describes YO:[/B] [I][COLOR=“DarkGreen”]“A yarn over between two knit stitches: Bring yarn forward as if to purl a stitch, then wrap the yarn-over the top of the needle and knit the next stitch.”[/COLOR][/I]

When I saw [COLOR=“Blue”]k3, *yo, p2tog, k3; repeat from * until end[/COLOR]… I assumed ‘yo’ included one knit stitch (*yo,k1, p2tog, k3). It does not!

I’m working on posting the book’s photo & pattern of the LACE WRAP. It is a pretty lace pattern for Spring. However, I like the look of the ‘mistake’ I made (w/ the added K1 after the yo) better. It puts a single cable-like stitching which pops-out over the lace holes. Being visually impaired I find this easier to see & it looks neater…

Thank you for your lessons on [COLOR=“DarkRed”][B]Yarn Overs and Repeats[/B][/COLOR]!

Yeah, another beginner/learn to knit book uses the same description. This one does say ‘between two knits’ which the other one doesn’t. It should properly read “[COLOR=DarkGreen][COLOR=Black]B[/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=DarkGreen][COLOR=Black]ring yarn forward as if to purl a stitch, then wrap the yarn-over the top of the needle and [COLOR=DarkGreen]work the next stitch[/COLOR][/COLOR] in the pattern.” [COLOR=Black]The next stitch could be a knit or purl or decreases[/COLOR][/COLOR]

Wow. Hi. :waving: There may be more beginners faltering from ‘Knitting made easy’ books. These books need better explanations & fewer patterns in them…

[COLOR=“Purple”]Your description of a YO was perfectly clear![/COLOR]

Now after weeks… of learning & corrections… I FINALLY started the whole pattern (not just testing stitches). As I was knitting,
I ran into another problem w/ Yarn Overs:
[B]If I make a mistake & undo a row of stictches - [/B][COLOR=“Red”][B]can not find all the stitches again[/B][/COLOR]. Inevitably, I end up w/ a reduced # stitches on the row… [COLOR=“Navy”]AS A BEGINNER, I start-over alot![/COLOR]

This problem of lost/unrecovered stitches (usually YOs) is compounded by my being visually impaired. Oh, well! Not going to stop trying… {I do use larger needles w/ a high contrast between color of yarn & needle (ie. dark purple yarn on light silver needles). Another thread to post later…}

I have now decided I can [COLOR=“red”]reduce the chance of error[/COLOR] by putting more knit stitches between YOs. Takes some conversion calculations. Thanks to all of you for helping me learn how to calculate repeats & stitches per row!!!

Any suggestions on retrieving YO’s when back-tracking stitches?

thanks,

If I forget a YO I usually find out on the next RS row and I just pick up the yarn between sts on the row it should have been on and pick up the yarn for the st on the next row as if it were a dropped stitch. For re-inserting a needle when I rip out, I rip back to the end of the RS row and insert the needle stitch by stitch as I unknit each stitch. So when I’m ready to re-knit that row there weren’t any YOs on it from the previous purl only row on the WS.

Okay. Good advise! Do know that it’s easy to see a missed YO stitch - BIG HOLE. Still not talented enough to pick up lost stitches in mid row though… I am still at the beginner - just-rip-out-stage:wink: !

As for your last sentence:
[I][COLOR=“RoyalBlue”]For re-inserting a needle when I rip out, I rip back to the end of the RS row and insert the needle stitch by stitch as I unknit each stitch. So when I’m ready to re-knit that row there weren’t any YOs on it from the previous purl only row on the WS. [/COLOR][/I]

In the stitch pattern I am using:
I do every row except 3 rows of just knit at beginning & end.
[COLOR=“Red”]K3, * YO K1 P2tog K3; repeat to end.[/COLOR]

I really don’t have a WS & RS. Your method could work if you have one row of just purl.

I’m going to try to insert a picture of the orginal pattern which I did wrong & started this thread about next…

Thanks for your help!

Below is the LACE WRAP pattern from my ‘Knitting Made Easy’ book. After everyone’s help I learned I was doing a K after the YO & could never match 53 sts for the cast on stitches.

Well… that did NOT work. Did this to put in photo:
— select paperclip
— browse (found photo & hit open)

No photo appeared.
Must of missed a step. Did resize photo to 450x550, it meets the size requirements.

Any ideas?

Okay, if you don’t have a purl row, you can still just rip out to wherever the mistake is, and put the sts back on the needle as you take them out one by one. Just go slow. There’s a video for ‘tinking’ on the Tips page under Fixing Mistakes.

[B][COLOR=“Sienna”]Discouraged[/COLOR][/B].:wall:

1. [COLOR=“purple”]Spending more time recovering lost stitches than actual knitting!! [/COLOR] This lace pattern is HARD for a beginner!
2. [COLOR=“Purple”]I can NOT get my photos posted…[/COLOR].

Wanted ‘open stitch’ such as this lace pattern, for a[COLOR=“Magenta”][B] SPRING[/B][/COLOR] poncho for a child. (2 panels put together for poncho.) I’ve made one for a bear which has only 1-2 lace YO areas (max 15 stitches/ row). Now at ~50 stitches, well, I get lost easially!!

Thank you for video suggestions. Very helpful videos. Could [B]not[/B] find [B]‘tinking’[/B] one under Tips - but did find one about [B]‘lifeline’[/B] for lace stitches. Good idea!! BUT, not working either… using a multi-colored yarn. Can not see a contrast yarn as a marker for previous row of stitches (lifeline).

[COLOR=“Red”]Attachments at end of this post[/COLOR]~~~
[B]Photo 1 different YO methods,[COLOR=“Red”] prefer right one for ribbing[/COLOR].
[/B]Left side of photo: [COLOR=“Teal”]K3, *YO, P2tog, K3; rep to end.[/COLOR]
Right side of photo: [COLOR=“teal”] K3, *YO, K1, P2tog, K3; rep to end.[/COLOR]~~~
[B] Photo 2 Lace Wrap Pattern[/B] that started this thread.

If no photos, I’m sorry, again! If they do show up :woot: !!!

I’m sorry, I was sure we had a video that showed how to ‘unknit’ a stitch. Here’s one from Youtube.

[COLOR=“Magenta”][B][I]To to all of you beginners out there![/I][/B][/COLOR]
I am just a humble beginner, but I did learn one lession besides the excellent ones from KH.

[COLOR=“DarkOrchid”][B]Trust [U]yourself[/U] to find answers too… [/B][/COLOR]
Sometimes it’s just trying an easier way!
Maybe:[B] BIGGER NEEDLES.[/B]

Thank you for your help w/ my :wall: head-beating-the-wall knitting experiences. Excellent lesson on how to rip-out & recover stitches. Interesting name -> [COLOR=“DarkOliveGreen”][B]‘tinking’[/B][/COLOR]! HOWEVER>> Still discouraged from [COLOR=“Blue”]spending more time ripping out stitches than knitting[/COLOR]… I decided I needed to REDUCE complexity of what I am doing. But, how?

I had some ideas -[COLOR=“Purple”][B]on my own [/B][/COLOR] - to reduce ‘my’ mistakes & still allow me to make open-look lace poncho.

1. I changed lace pattern to allow me to [U]work in TWOS[/U].
(TO - [COLOR=“Red”] K2, *yo (wrap around r needle), p2tog, K2, rep frm * to end.[/COLOR] )Much easier to keep track of…

2. I switched from [U]sz [B]8 to sz 10 1/2 [/B]needles[/U]. Bigger needles made a huge difference! Easier to find stitches & watch what I was doing…

3. I am now -every 5 rows - [U]alternating between ‘harder’ lace stitch & easier plain knit stitch.[/U] Can relax once-in-a-while. (ie. 5 rows knit-only, 5 rows lace pattern stitch, 5 rows knit-only…).

:knitting: I will post photo of my recent personal knitting triumph next week…

Hopefully my struggles have helped others!
Thank you all so much!
Lee

Good for you for finding a solution that works! There’s no law that says you have to follow the pattern [I]exactly as written[/I]. I never do.

Definitely, do whatever you need/want to. That’s what’s so great about knitting.

I read the whole thread, but my apologies if I missed it. I don’t see anybody suggesting a [B]lifeline[/B], so it’s easy to frog back a few rows, not all the way back to the beginning.
Here’s a great description (couldn’t find a knittinghelp one):
http://www.heartstringsfiberarts.com/lifeline.shtm

Don’t forget to keep replacing the lifeline every inch or two as your knitting gets longer, then you don’t have to rip back very far if need be.